Coming up at 9:30, a Seattle City Council committee hearing on the Fair and Transparent Pricing ordinance -- banning algorithmic price discrimination (aka surveillance pricing)! It'll be livestreamed at seattlechannel.org. ... I'll be live-skeeting it here. West Seattle Blog has some great coverage of the ordinance at bsky.app
If you haven’t seen, @councilmember-amr.bsky.social and Dionne Foster alongside @mayor.seattle.gov are introducing legislation tomorrow to ban algorithmic pricing in grocery stores: westseattleblog.com And grocery companies are whipping up opposition
westseattleblog.com
And if you're in Seattle, @wa-air.bsky.social has an action up at actionnetwork.org
actionnetwork.org
Intense lobbying by Big Tech and big grocery retailers killed a similar bill in the state legislature earlier this year, and they're already spreading disinfo about this ordinance. bsky.app
1. Hmm I wonder how they got everyone’s phone numbers…. 2. I wonder how much they spent to text half the city misleading information about the bill. ANYWAYS tomorrow will be the 1st committee hearing on our surveillance pricing bill to stop price gouging and make groceries more affordable.
As I'm sure we'll here today, the Seattle surveillance pricing ordinance doesn't prohibit coupons, discounts, or loyalty and rewards programs. But lobbyists will claim otherwise. They'll probably also claim that it will cause the sky to fall. bsky.app
Seattle looks to ban surveillance pricing with the "Fair and Transparent Pricing Ordinance" - and the disinfo has already started thenexusofprivacy.net
thenexusofprivacy.net
I'm off to get some tea (caffeination is vital for city council meetings), back at 9:30! And we're live! The Seattle City Council Human Services, Labor, & Economic Development CommitteeF hearing, where the Fair Pricing and Transparency ordinance -- banning algorithmic price discrimination (aka surveillance pricing) -- is second on the agenda. seattlechannel.org. Now starting public comment -- we only have 60 seconds each. Up first, Maya Morales of @wapeoplesprivacy.bsky.social (I have to adjust my own testimony, I thought I had 2 minutes, will be back) Both Maya and Julie of Washington Fair Trade Commission, the next speaker, talked about benefits of the bill, and highlighted the misleading lobbying I mentioned. Somebody from Working Families Party highlights that the price of groceries is out of control, need lawmakers to act now. Somebody from industry: "the ordinance should be carefully crafted, getting the policy right the first time matters" Gabriel Hill from @seattletru.bsky.social supports it. "This isn't fair pricing, this is mass surveillance" John from @amzn4climate.bsky.social talks about Amazon's use of algorithmic pricing. "Bringing this to grocery pricing is dystopian" Gabriel Neuman of GSBA (Seattle's LGBTQ Chamber of Commerce) wants to make sure promotions and discounts are still okay. Seems to be arguing for amendments to weaken it. Up next, Rose Feliciano of @technet-21.org. Supports goal but "as drafted, may prohibit using data for discounts". Suggests that they should allow groceries to set prices high for everybody and then use algorithmic price discrimination to selectively decrease them. Yeah right. Another person opposes it, says that Seattle retailers aren't using algorithmic price discrimination yet, also warns about loyalty programs. Next, @mlklabor.bsky.social, talks about working people coming together to face a threat -- a model for other states to follow. Working people are struggling. There's also a lot of testimony supporting an amemdment to the Domestic Workers' Ordinance -- a good thing! Another person from @mlklabor.bsky.social , tips hat to @ufcw3000.bsky.social (who has been great on this issue). Puts it in the context of good context service. Wants to get same discounts as anybody else without having to share personal info. A grocery worker from @ufcw3000.bsky.social . "Grocery workers see how much families struggle with the cost of groceries every day." Customers are doing everything to save. Legislation needs to prevent discounts be used as a loophole. Need a strong ordinance! Stacey from @consumerreports.org . Survey in 2025: Instacart shoppers didn't want company to charge different prices, didn't know they were in an experiment. People were paying up to 23% more for the same groceries. Another resident voices support. "It's evident enough that prices are ridiculous, seeing surveillance everywhere. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile with our data. All for a stronger ordinance." Another resident, urges improvement. Supports ordinance, opposes carveout for discounts. "How do you know they're not using AI? They're black box algorithms." (Paging @frankpasquale.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy ! "Black box algorithms" sighting in the wild!) Another person with a great example of algorithms using info about gluten sensitive to adjust prices of gluten-free pasta. Very well done, a complex example for just 60 seconds! A 19-year-old college student in support of the ordinance. "All the trends are telling me I'm going to be gouged. I don't want discounts at the expense of somebody else in my community is getting charged more." Harper from District 3, "here to speak in favor of the price gouging measure". Need to protect Seattleites from billionaires. "I shouldn't have to watch what I say in my email so that bananas won't cost $5 each!" The idea this will only be used for discounts is a lie. Gabriel saying thank you to @ufcw3000.bsky.social workers for sending the alarm out to our community. We need to stop this. Thanks councilmembers who are supporting us. "This is a fight where we need your support." Danielle, executive director of Working Washington. Sets this in the context of abuse of algorithms setting workers pay, hours, etc. "We don't want consumers to face the same problems." Also pushing back on the request for discounts. Seattle can take the lead. Paul talking about a shopping cart that can measure your heart rate that can measure your data. We need to be able to act to come to Seattle. Notes that discounts are already covered in the ordinance. "This bill is good!" Dustin for @ufcw3000.bsky.social, thanks mayor's team for putting together the strongest ordinance in the country. Notes that the ordinance doesn't prevent discounts etc. Real issue is whether grocers can use the personal info to determine grocers. Now moving to remote speakers. Tammy, Washington Food Industry Association (I think). "Independent grocers do not engage in algorithmic price discrimination. Pleased that the ordinance doesn't impact indpendent grocery stores." Thanks mayor and councilemembers Kate -- missed her affiliation, in strong support. "Corporations know our purchasing habits, health, family structure, work hours and what we can't go without.... a lower price isn't a bargain when it's calculated to be the most a particular person can pay" Robert Singleton of @progresschamber.org , asks committee not to advance the draft. (How progressive!). Repeats the same lies as other lobbyists. Talks about loyalty cards -- which are explicitly allowed. Amy Harris of WTIA. "The proposed carveouts are so narrow they don't cover loyalty programs. There are penalties!" Oh noes! Marco of Seattle Latino Chamber of Commerce, opposed to the pricing ordinance. Warns about serious economic consequences. Misleadingly claims this will eliminate discounts. Up next ... me, @jdp23.thenexus.today! Here's what I said: thenexusofprivacy.net
thenexusofprivacy.net
Now, Crystal Weatherman of Washington Retail Association, concerned that it will cut loyalty programs, discounts, etc. "Exclusions are contradicted elsewhere in the contract." It's almost like all the lobbyists are all working from the same talking points! Another community member, supporting the ordinance. "Please protect our privacy, and ethical businesses in the city." Crisp and to the point! Next commenter: "Business groups have no interest in saving customers money." Talks about how they got a windfall from tariffs, none of it went to consumers or workers. Legislation is a great move, thanks CM Rinck. David: "need to discipline the greed of wall street middlemen that are shaking down our economy". Pivots to talking about King County Homelessness Authority. Lauren (missed the affiliation sorry), supports the ordinance. "Our personal data should not become a weapon that corporations use to extract profit." Sets it (quite rightly) in the context of AI promoting inequality. "AI is not inevitable" And that's it for public comment. A good turnout. @alexis4seattle.bsky.social says it's the longest comment period since she's been chairing the committee. People really care about this bill! Next item on the agenda is the amendment to the Domestic Worker's ordinance. The agenda allocates 40 minutes for briefing and discussion, so I'm going to take a break ... I'll be back for the briefing and discussion on the Fair and Transparent Pricing Ordinance. And now we're back to the briefing and discussion of the fair pricing ordance -- you can watch at seattlechannel.org. @alexis4seattle.bsky.social talks about the months of work on this, highlights how timely this ordinance is. "At a time when SNAP reductions have rocked the community and people have even less to spend on food, need to make sure discounts are available to everybody." Thanks the team for having put the work into developing the ordinance, at the Mayor's office, council central staff, her own staff. And expresses appreciation to co-sponsor, vice-chair Foster! Panel: Kerem Levitas from the Mayor's office @leehepner.bsky.social of @econliberties.bsky.social @katiejwells.bsky.social of @ainowinstitute.bsky.social Karem: Grocers collect as many as 2000 data points about individuals: financial information, browser history, etc. Impacts on consumers, and also small and independent groceries. Lee will provide background and look at legislation around the country. Dr. Wells will present her research Karem will go into the detail on the legislation. Lee talks about all the different information they gather and how they use it ... here's his slide. Cites FTC report from early 2025. One example prices for baby thermometers for new parents are higher in the middle of the night. ftc.gov
Notes that some price discrimination is okay -- coupons for example. But the *individualize* stuff is inherently problematic. Destroys the market But, consumer protection laws don't prohibit this. Distinguishes between independent grocery stores and chains. Kroger's makes over 35% of its revenue from its data broker business (!) Emphasizes that there is no prohibition on discounts or loyalty programs. "That's categorically untrue." This legislation is designed to *protect* consumer benefits -- disccounts for students or seniors, loyalty programs, etc. "Personalized discounts is a clever misnomer for price discrimination". If 10 consumers are offered different prices between 10 and 20 dolars, is the person getting it for 19 getting a *discount*? Three pillars of fair pricing: 1. predictability: you know what a price is going to be 2. transparency: you know why a discount is being offered 3. fairness: surveillance pricing erodes competitive pressure for stores to hold out a price to all consumers Several states have begun banning surveillance pricing. AELP wound up opposing the bill in Maryland becaus the carveouts were so big for loyalty cards. Points to Colorado as a nantion-leading example of a bill that got it right. Notes that bunches o' state bills, three federal bills as well @katiejwells.bsky.social talks about why sthe started looking at this. She (like many parents) was shopping for products for her baby online. Went to place an order on the computer, got disstracted, went to finish it up on her phone. On computer, price was $8.99. On the phone $9.79. "I shouldn't have been surprised. But I was! And thus began the research project." Discusses research on algorithmic pricing on Instacart, including a Seattle Safeway. Here's @consumerreports.org story on this consumerreports.org
www.consumerreports.org
Findings resonate because algoirthmic discrimination sets fire to our values and rules. Feels terrible to see ideas about fairness go up in flames. Quotes a participant talking about a price for people who are disabled and old Talks about an experience in Safeway buying paper plates. She and another women pulled up their app with coupons ... different prices! Cites "the loyalty trap" (I think) Discusses how much retailers have invested in this, Walmart patent for shopping cart mentioned earlier. Karem's overview of the policy: "prohibits price setting based on personal info" -- race, gender, employment status, activity online, AI chatbot services Protects common discounts: coupons, loyalty programs No impact on store-based pricing and regional analysis -- as long as it doesn't involve personal information Very intentional about protecting small and independent grocers -- they aren't covered Also includes mandatory disclosures and enforcement provisions. Robust engagement with community and business. Cites several staffers good work. Seven meetings with community side, six stakeholder meetings with industry. Also consulted with national experts. Details on policy provisions ... who's covered? Note that PCC's, Red Apples, Uwajimaya aren't covered. EDIT: now updated with alt text,
Details on what's prohibited ...
Specifically allowed practices -- carveouts based on feedback from industry.
Protected discounts ... "if this sounds like a long list, it is! We really worked with industry to make sure current practices are protected."
Whoops, missed the slide on how purchase history is protected. This is personal information, but using it is specifically allowed for tiers of consumer -- as long as other personal information isn't also used. And there are dislosure requirements too. Enforcement: city attorney and private right of action FAS will do rulemaking, but not agency enforcement. Effective date: September 1, 2027 End of presentation. CM Rinck returns to the protected discount slide ... "we really worked to make sure these were allowed. but it's so funny, I'm getting texts I didn't sign up for that says discounts aren't allowed!" Karem goes through what's protected -- including loyalty careds Does this ordinance prohibit discounts? No. Could retailers still change prices based on cost, seasonal availaility, storewide promotions? Yes. And they can put stuff on sale at the end of the day if bread is going stale. CM Saka. "The time is now to protect consumers. This legislation is essential!" Emphasizes that this bill wouldn't ban discounts, just predatory practices. It would import fairness, transparency. Ensures a level playing field. Sounds like he's on board! Notes that his district (D1) has a lot of food desserts. Concerned about constituents and neighbors getting charged more by large corporations taking advantage of the fact that people have few options. Believes this legislation is directionally correct -- at the principle and provision level "It's exactly what we need right now. Is the specific language in the bill perfect? I dunno, remains to be seen, we'll go through it. Strongly support, would like to be listed as a co-sponsor." Vice-chair Foster: Thanks CM Rinck, Mayor, staff. Very happy to be a cosponsor. "When I go to buy an airline ticket, I usually leave the house and go to a library. I don't *have* to buy an airline ticket, but people *have* to buy groceries. A smart way to ensure we're protecting our residents" Asks to hear more about strategy for protecting small grocers and store-based pricing. Ordinance doesn't cover retailers with 19 or fewer locations, only 20+ are covered. PCC has 15-17, Red Apple, Uwajamiya, aren't coverd. Small markets under 10K feet aren't covered, or convenience stores Ability for a store to offer different prices at different location doesn't use personal information at all. Based on dialog with retailers, we put in a specific carveout to ensure that it's not clear. CM Foster mentions she's noticed the Electronic Shelf Labels (ESLs). Clarifies that the legislation doesn't ban them, just bans their use for surveilloance pricing. Correct, retailers have already invested in these and rolling them out, not trying to block that. Next step: - Draft on IRC (?) next week, central staff memo out by end of next week - Amendment concepts due after that - August 21 committee meeting will have briefing First meeting after council recess will vote on amendments. (Not sure of the date on that, sometime in September). And that's it for today's committee hearing on the Fair and Transparent Pricing Ordnance. Really great presentation by the panelists, lots of outstanding public comment, and lobbyists making the expected points. A good hearing! And, here's a single-page version of this thread, via Skywriter skywriter.blue
skywriter.blue